Pastor John MacArthur tells Ben Shapiro, 'not all Jews are true Jews' spiritually, but 'all Israel will be saved' through the Messiah in the last days

Prominent American pastor, author and theologian, John MacArthur, told Ben Shapiro in a recent interview that “not all Jews are true Jews in the spiritual sense,” and that he is “driven by love” to call “the Jews to come to the knowledge of Christ as the Messiah.”

MacArthur, who pastors the Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, also said that the preservation of ethnic Israel is part of the plan of God, and that, according to the prophecy of Romans 11:26, “all Israel will be saved” in the last days.

Though Shapiro, an American conservative political commentator, is a practicing Orthodox Jew who denies that Jesus is the Messiah, he responded to MacArthur’s comments by saying the desire of Christians to see him saved is “a good thing.”

“I’m not offended at all by the fact that Christians want me saved,” Shapiro told MacArthur. “I’m quite flattered by it that people care enough for my soul that they want me saved after death. And so I’ve never found, you know, anybody attempting to convert me to be offensive or dangerous in any way. Again, I think that’s quite a good thing.”

The conversation was the second published interaction between Shapiro and MacArthur, the first having taken place in 2018.

MacArthur, one of America’s most well-known Evangelical leaders also leads the "Grace To You" media ministry.

During their conversation, MacArthur and Shapiro found common ground in their shared opposition to secularism and woke ideology, and the need to revive Christianity in America.

Shapiro spoke against the “bizarrely androgynous” version of Jesus presented in many churches, with many leaders being afraid to call out the sin of their congregants or in the world.

Agreeing with Shapiro’s comments, MacArthur said that Jesus wasn’t hesitant to call the world and the leaders of Israel to repentance.

“Much of his ministry was pronouncing judgment,” MacArthur said. “You either come to God for forgiveness and salvation, or you’re going to come under divine judgment.”

He noted that Jesus “at the beginning of his ministry went into the temple and made a whip, and cleaned out the buyers and sellers – and then he did it again in the passion week – three years later at the end of his ministry. And then he stood outside the temple and said not one stone is going to stand upon another in this temple, I’m going to bring it all down because it’s corrupt…and he pronounced judgment on that temple, and it wasn’t long after that that the Romans came in 70 A.D., and everybody knows what happened to Jerusalem, which is exactly what Jesus said would happen.”

While noting that most Jews reject Jesus as their Messiah, MacArthur said those Jews who accepted Christ were spiritually “true Jews.”

“In the meantime, of course, obviously there were true Jews. The New Testament says not all Jews are true Jews in the spiritual sense, in the sense that they love God and love his law and want to honor him.”

Shapiro responded by saying that he finds it flattering that Christians want him saved, and was concerned that “nefarious actors” were attempting to foster animosity between Jews and Christians.

“There’s been an attempt, I think, to divide Jews from Christians by some nefarious actors out there, who can’t hold two thoughts in their head at one time,” Shapiro said. “The thoughts being that yes, Christians would love Jews to convert, and the second thought being that also, Jews and Christians have a lot in common. You can hold both those thoughts in your head at the same exact time.”

Shapiro then asked MacArthur his thoughts about how Christians should relate to Jews

“What do you think that Christians’ relations with Jews should be like? How should Christianity approach Jews?”

MacArthur responded that “the difference between the Jews and the Christians” is “your view of Christ.”

He went on to say that Christians should, like the Apostle Paul, have a deep love for the people of Israel.

 “The Apostle Paul said, I could wish myself accursed for the salvation of my people Israel,” MacArthur said. “So, you know, that’s what I carry in my heart. Do I want you to be saved through faith in Christ? Yes. Do I want the Jewish people to be saved and do I want them to come to the truth that Jesus is actually their Messiah? He has to be because he fulfills Isaiah 53, he fulfills so many other Old Testament promises because he was a miracle worker who rose from the dead, he validated all of that. Do I want the Jews to believe? Yes. Paul, he actually said I could wish myself accursed for the salvation of my people Israel. So yes, we want the Jews to come to the knowledge of Christ as the Messiah. That is basically driven by love.”

MacArthur also said that “true Christians have a profound love for the Jewish people” since they were chosen by God to be central to his plan of redemption.

Noting that “the fulfillment of that choice, as far as Christianity is concerned, comes in the salvation that comes through the Messiah,” MacArthur said that “the prayer of Christians is always that the Jewish people would see Christ as their Messiah.”

He said the only way Jews will come to their Messiah is through reading the New Testament.

“All I can ask of Jewish people is read the four gospels. Just keep reading it. And see if you don’t find the awakening in your own heart that he is, in fact, the Messiah that he claimed to be…read the New Testament, that’s all I can say. That is the revelation of the Messiah. And you read it, and open your heart to the Lord, and see if he doesn’t convince that Jesus is your Messiah. That’s the joy that I would have for Israel, for you.”

Speaking of God’s preservation of the Jewish people through history, MacArthur said it was ultimately to fulfill the promises He made in the Old and New Testaments.

“The New Testament says, ‘so all Israel will be saved.’ There’s coming a kingdom, He will fulfill every promise He ever gave to David, every promise He ever gave to Abraham, every promise ever coming through the prophets will be fulfilled when Messiah establishes His kingdom. God is going to preserve that people.”